What is the government's strategy?
Elorriaga.- After the world repudiated Acteal massacre of 45 indigenous people in December of 1997, the Mexican government implemented 20 thousand men more to the military effective in Chiapas, and launched them against the same communities that were massacred. Today there are close to 60 thousand soldiers in the area and the impunity of the paramilitary groups is there because of the presence of the military. When logic, decency and political responsibility would indicate that after the massacre, a dismembering of the paramilitary groups would take place, it went the other way there is a massive entry of troops that go against Zapatista communities and protect and offer even more impunity to the already existing paramilitary groups.
This military pressure on Zapatista communities. Wouldn't be part of the so called "low intensity conflict" to try to weaken EZLN bases and force them to a military response also?
Elorriaga.- The strategy is to create entire areas where campesinos would not be able to farm and therefore the guerrilla would not be able to eat. It is a genocidal policy because today, there are close to 10 thousand exiled refugees in the highlands of Chiapas and between 6 to 8 thousand in the north, in the zone of Tumbala and Tila living in conditions of absolute misery, living in the mountains and surviving thanks to national and international solidarity whenever this is possible to arrive...It's a genocidal policy of the Mexican government to choke the Zapatista army not understanding that the EZLN and these communities are the same.
Something similar to what was done in Guatemala against the guerrilla and the indigenous communities....
Elorriaga.- With the difference that in Guatemala the guerrillas had the support of the civilian population but they were not the entire population. The Zapatista army is formed by all these communities. To wipe out the EZLN you would have to wipe out tens of thousands of indigenous people. It seems that the Mexican government is willing to undertake this genocide at a long term. Either kills them by bullet or kills them by hunger. Before it would kill them by hunger and sickness in 10 years, now it would try to do it in two years, in infrahuman conditions, in the mountains in the refugee camps.
And the paramilitary groups that act with impunity, wouldn't they also be part of that same strategy to isolate the EZLN and hit its bases?
Elorriaga.- In addition to that offensive by the federal Mexican army,the government is doing its dirty war with paramilitary groups. The political cost of the dirty war is high, so then they use the paramilitaries who move with impunity in Chiapas. It is not credible that the army can not detect them and disarm them.Therefore they are the ones who continue harassing entire Zapatista communities, forcing them to go to the mountains, stealing their corn and coffee crops, having control check points and highway blockades, having communities like Tila and Sabanilla entirely fenced not letting anyone in or out. That is the real force of the government, because there is no other force other than the repressive force working in Chiapas.
Would you say there is a joint effort of the federal army, the state government and the paramilitary groups against the Zapatista communities?
Elorriaga.- Yes, because these paramilitary groups are not that strong to put an end to Zapatista autonomy, the state government is serving as pretext to attack the Zapatista autonomous authorities. Then the Mexican army together with Chiapas state police dismantle some of the Zapatista rebel municipalities, putting in jail the members and normally occupy a piece of (ejido) land and set up a camp for the federal army. More than ever they are acting like an occupying army. This has high political cost that the military has to evaluate with a lot of calm, because the image of the federal army was not so deteriorated in vast sectors in Mexico. Today it is clear that the federal Mexican army is the repressive arm of the PRI government.
Since last year in Chiapas, there has been the creation of several autonomous municipalities that are auto determined and do not respond to any government municipality or state government. It seems that the response of the EZLN to the government military offensive has been overall a political response...
Elorriaga.- The creation of autonomous municipalities is foreseen in the peace accords on Indigenous Rights and Culture signed in February of 1996. If the government does not abide them, the Zapatistas are doing it and there is already 38 autonomous municipalities. The government is always looking for the Zapatistas use of the weapons. It can not attack massively and openly therefore it needs that the provocations make the Zapatistas shoot the first bullet so that they can say to the world. " They attacked me, so I defended myself." That is why they are launching an offensive against the autonomous municipalities, to destroy them and force the EZLN to respond in a military fashion.
What type of provocations is the government doing against the autonomous municipalities?
Elorriaga.- It's persecuting the leaders and inhabitants of those municipalities, by invocating the Federal Law on Arms and Explosives to come in into the communities looking for arms and then detaining Zapatista civilians. There is already 120 held up in jails in Chiapas. Recently 48 from two autonomous municipalities, Flores Magon and Tierra y Libertad, have been consigned. There are rumours that say that the government was going to end the 38 autonomous municipalities which for sure would start the war again in Chiapas. Even the Governor threatened saying that state police would come in to the autonomous municipality of Polho, where the displaced and survivors of Acteal are. That would be a savage thing to do that I don't know if the "companheros" would take it...
There is also an offensive against the foreigners in Chiapas at the peace camps acting as international observers...
Elorriaga.- On one side , the government is trying to "kick out" "uncomfortable" international observers to a series of violations to human rights, on the other side is a smoke screen so that people would see so many things on Chiapas that would make them understand nothing so it would be best to change the channel. Is part of the government strategy, but so far, it hasn't worked. People are still interested in Chiapas.
Why is the government not abiding and honouring the San Andres Accords on Indigenous Rights and Culture signed together with the EZLN in February of 1996?
Elorriaga.- A subjective matter, is the authority principle of the government: "How some Indians are going to tell me what I must do"...An obsession that Zedillo has with the Zapatistas and with the Indigenous people. They are not going to win. He has not understand yet that is not about winning or loosing. Is about creating new forms of relations in Mexico. And there is also an incapacity of the Mexican political system that lost that capacity that held during the the twentieth century. The capacity to readjust to the new needs. The San Andres Accords would imply a real democracy in the Mexican municipalities, would give indigenous people a new role, it would take away much of the control that the government has on the fields and on the "campesino" vote. All of that would be touched by the San Andres Accords, it would be the first time in modern history of Mexico that a law initiative would be constructed from the bottom and not coming from the President. Therefore the signed accords have too many "germs" that go against the Mexican political system. It is unheard of a government signing accords and then saying it will not recognise them because did not know what it was signing.
Why is it that the autonomy of indigenous towns as foreseen by the San Andres Accords seems so "dangerous" to the Mexican government?
Elorriaga.- The autonomy is already in place within the Constitution in the definition of free municipality, but this is not abided by. What the San Andres Accords do is fine tune that autonomy and they are not asking any other than what has already been recognised in the Treaty 169 of the International Organisation of Labour (On indigenous towns) that the Mexican government recognises and should make it its own law. But, where these indigenous communities are, in some of them there is much wealth and natural resources and international capital wants to have a bite in those territories. By applying autonomy in a legal way the communities would carry a lot of weight in the derision making as to how to develop productively those natural resources and wealth. not the oil or the natural gas that already belong to the nation, but the forest, the rivers, the precious woods, the biodiversity that exists in the territories. There are projects that the Mexican government is doing with translational companies, without consulting anybody, with the autonomy in place, it would have to consult with the indigenous communities.
Then,there are economic reasons, but also political ones that the government do not reveal openly and that is what is driving the government to oppose the autonomy of the indigenous towns...
Elorriaga.- There is a powerful economic matter, tied to other political matters like loosing "control" over indigenous communities. Like a forest megaproject to plant Eucalyptus trees that destroys lands in a few years but leaves enormous profits to paper manufacturing companies and for that they were able to change environmental laws. There are others like a great interoceanic canal that would go through indigenous towns. With the foreseen autonomy in the San Andres Accords and incorporated in the Constitution, the government would have to consult with the indigenous towns before authorising any project in their land. This obligation to consult,whether the people are indigenous or not, it would have better legal possibilities to defend their patrimony, their forms of organisation,these go against the logic of the authoritarian Mexican system and that is why the government will not give any real step towards democratisation of the social, political and economical Mexican life. That is why it doesn't want the indigenous autonomy.
Is there any advancement in the investigation of the massacre in Acteal? It is almost six months since the massage in December of 1997.
Elorriaga.-There is a lack of seriousness on behalf of the government,because in theory the investigation is still in process, we all know where the money and the weapons used by the paramilitaries came from and there is an ongoing investigation by the judicial power that it would be independent from the other powers. Nevertheless, Zedillo in his recent trip to Venezuela and Chile said that the Executive power issued a decree that it had been an inter family squabble and that was it. When the President decrees that the massacre was provoked by inter family squabbles or inter communitary conflicts, we know where the official investigation is going...
But, is there somebody involved in the massacre that has been detained?
Elorriaga.- There are about 40 trigger pullers in jail, including the mayor of the municipality of Chenalho that belongs to the PRI, but these are the executioners. The intellectual mentors, the ones who gave the order, no one is in jail. And what the government is doing has no name, because is filling up the jails with Zapatistas and later is going to offer amnesty and is going to free the 200 Zapatistas together with the 40 Acteal murderers. Well, who else is going to think of those wicked and repressive ways when his assistants or consultants come from the School of the Americas, Argentinean, Chilean, Israeli and Guatemalan militaries...
What has been the role of the FZLN, what type of political work has been doing, what is the relation with the Zapatista indigenous communities?
Elorriaga.- We support them with the classical material solidarity that we can, we do different fund raising campaigns, food, medicines, some people go to Chiapas to participate in the civilian peace camps in the communities other go as medics, teachers, this is the material solidarity which is limited because the FZLN is poor. And on the other side the commitment is political, is helping construct with other forces political spaces so big, that in some of these democratic spaces constructed from the bottom,Zapatismo could fit in. We know that the communities are not going to have anything if we do not advance in the general democratisation of Mexico. To a lot of people that may sound slow and tiring, but the fast ways have demonstrated that they are not ways but illusions that lead not to real change.
Civilian Zapatismo that organises from the FZLN, how does it communicate with other sectors of society that are non Zapatistas?
Elorriaga.- We are going slow but sure.We have never been less, we always are a bit more, even though our strength is small,but when it comes to anything related with Chiapas, we have a certain authority, a power of gathering. We try to interwove many alliances with other groups including political parties such as the bases of the PRD (Partido de la Revolucion Democratica). We know that alone, we will be able to do nothing and we seek alliances, not just to participate in Chiapas, but in other struggles of the people, for the freedom of political prisoners, in support of land takeovers, land belonging to campesinos, in the democratisation of unions, in a front against privatisation of public universities. The Front is made of mainly women and youth, many professors and students. We try to influence all those struggles against the neoliberal system of domination.
What type of relationship does the FZLN have with the PRD that has grown as an electoral option? It won the governance of Mexico City with Cuauhtemoc Cardenas last year and has amplified its parliamentary base in Congress.
Elorriaga.- A line of dialogue was opened with the PRD after Acteal and the unilateral initiative of indigenous reform that came from the government. There were very good conversations with Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador PRD's president.And a very well coordinated line of action was established. We made the National Citizenship Assembly where the PRD, us and several social organisations of the country in diverse cities and states to press for the implementation of the San Andres Accords and include the demands of the Zapatistas as condition to continue with the dialogue. We have participated with them in these initiatives.
With the change in the correlation of forces within the National Congress, as of the electoral growth of the PRD, will there be a better possibility to unlock the peace negotiations in Chiapas, that depend in great measure upon the approval of the initiative on the San Andres Accords?
Elorriaga.-This correlation of forces is not strong enough to unlock the peace negotiations,but to put a halt to war for now. If Congress would of passed the initiative that came from Zedillo, that does not recognise the San Andres Accords and the indigenous autonomy, it could of been a declaration of war to all indigenous towns. It was stopped by luck. The PRD did not want the part of the game and has disarticlated the alliance of the PRI with the PAN. The PAN saw that it was stuck to the PRI to approve an initiative that was very unpopular and that it was going o have electoral costs. I am sure the members of the PAN couldn't care less about the indigenous people, but they do care about the elections. That was a great political defeat to the government even though they would not accept it...
But the initiative from the COCOPA (Spanish abbreviation for Concorde and Pacification Commission)on Indigenous Rights and Culture has not yet been presented to Congress because the government will not accept it...
Elorriaga.- If the initiative from the COCOPA does not pass in Congress, nothing is going to happen. The COCOPA has been hit hard, it has not change the initiative but neither has defended it to death. But all the social movement,the PRD, Zapatismo, the indigenous movement, we do defend it and we do not accept any other. If they legislate on another, they are not going to resolve anything and they are going to get in trouble, because then, they are not going to get Zapatismo in another table of negotiations ever. Then they will have to end it in a military way, and lets see what government is willing to massacre thousands of indigenous people...
Since 1994 many people got used to relating with Chiapas through Marcos communiques. In view of Marcos "silence" since he has not written or spoken publicly, there has been articles and notes that speculate on the reasons of the "Zapatista silence"...
Elorriaga.- There are people who do not know how to
interpret silence and are used to have the leaders speak and they do
not hear when the bases are the ones doing the talking. Zapatismo is
not silent, there are, every two or three days communications from
some of the Zapatista rebel municipalities mentioning some atrocity,
asking for solidarity,etc. etc. Then, what silence?
Marcos silence?
Marcos if he has not said a word they will know why he has not
spoken. I imagine because he has nothing to say at the time, what
they had to say they already said it and meanwhile the government
doesn't show any other way, there is nothing to be added to the
discussion. But there is no Zapatista silence,the communities are
speaking loud and clear in the traditional way of the communique and
strong in the way of action. There are massive mobilisations of
entire towns to peacefully defend their municipalities, there is the
unarmed daily confrontation with the occupation army asking them to
leave. Anyway, I think the Zapatistas are speaking.
The Zapatista message has been spread much through the Internet, in a web of alternative communication that is being constructed as the facts happen in Chiapas and the solidarity movement in Mexico and in other countries continue. What can be said about the struggle of the social movements that this open front can mean with the use of the Internet?
Elorriaga.- It is one of the fundamental things it brought to the alternative struggle against power at the end of the century and is going to leave its mark as the printing press did in earlier political struggles,the computer helped a lot in the democratisation of publications from the left. Now the Internet and that capacity of gathering, unity, dialogue, still there is a lot to be said and to reflect on how we humans are going to conduct politics in the 21 century. It has been fundamental to the Zapatista struggle in Chiapas and worldwide. That is what the Mexican government is just beginning to react, but thinking is a mater of technology, that some attractive web pages,with more money and they are going to win the war to Zapatismo. It would be necessary to explain to the Mexican government what moral authority means,legitimacy, truth, dignity...
And this is not about a" war in the Internet",the movements in action and individuals in the net advance in parallel to its social organisation. The virtual net is also real, because it can potentate political action...
Elorriaga.- A lot of people who use the Internet are by themselves at home, but many of its users are groups that are fighting in their countries to end exclusion of homosexuals, or for better medical services or for a many number of struggles,sometime tied to parties, most of the time not related . More than technical resources or money what is the engine that moves it is political organisation, that is why it has that strength, that is why Zapatismo is so subversive
Some first world countries are aware of the "danger" of a web via the Internet to connect social movements and actions of solidarity. Their military intelligence consultants foresee scenarios of a "Cybernetic war" and recommend repression to those movements. Has the Mexican government done anything against the web sites from the Zapatistas like the web page of the FZLN?
Elorriaga.- I would lie if I said yes. Sometimes our connection fails. It is very difficult to get you out of the net. If we are thrown out in Mexico, we come in some other way..
In what people imagines, what is what Zapapatismo has rescued from the historical experiences of the struggle against oppression and what is the contribution that has added?
Elorriaga.- Thinking in the struggle against oppression, what has been rescued the most is open and immediate participation of the people. That is instead of hiding we must come out and win the streets,we have to go to the people and explain to them what is going on. Like the mothers of Plaza de Mayo do. If an offensive comes against Zapatismo and instead of hiding, you go out to the street and say here I am, how many more you want to kill, I am not going o hide. That was seen a lot during February of 1995. When Zedillo broke the truce and ordered the attack, they came to EZLN territory tearing everything up and persecuting Zapatistas. A black list of union leaders, politicians, who were to be killed and then the military strike was coming... And the people instead of hiding go out to the street. When I am being accused of been a terrorist, then the consultants say, we are also terrorist, we are here to turn ourselves in. Maybe we can be killed but they are not going to frighten us...
Zapatismo will also represent an affirmation of the people and the right to organise...
Elorriaga.- The need to participate openly, to go out to the street, to communicate with other people, that is what I think is most important, that is to withdraw politics from a politics class and bring it down to the civil society, give everybody a chance to build politics and not only to a privileged elite. I believe that would be one of the most fundamental issues that Zapatismo is bringing forth. The revolution anybody can do it, not just the proletariat and the peasants. And we can do it from winning the spaces where one lives where one sleeps, where one eats and work. Not just in the electoral domain, but in the barrio, in the ghetto, in the school, in family and in job relations. This is the concept of popular revolution, real, daily.The politico-military vanguards are things of the past, what we must do is look even lower,more horizontal.
Being like that, do you think that Zapatismo has even more room to grow? To speak to the common people...
Elorriaga.- Yes, because instead of speaking about the proletariat dictatorship, Zapatismo speaks about democracy, liberty and justice, to some people from the left these are reformist values, but the majority of people understand these even better.People understand better if we say, we are going to build a clean barrio, safe and where we all can have a job, instead of shouting "for general strike uninterrupted until we take the power"...
What is your political-judicial situation after your freedom last year after more than a year in prison, accussed of being a "terrorist"and a leader of the EZLN?
Have you been pressured or persecuted?
Elorriaga.- I was accused of terrorism, rebellion, sedition, mutiny, delictive association etc. and at the end there was no evidence. What was the judicial basis?
Supposedly a deserter from the EZLN,whose name is Salvador Morales Garibay, who never showed up for the hearings, testified that I was part of the leadership of the EZLN. At the time the EZ was "terrorist" so I was a "terrorist"too. Morales Garibay doesn't exist but we asked six times for him to show up for the hearings and he never did. The trial took place and I was found guilty.Then my case was appealed to a higher court and the judge ordered me free. In theory I can not be tried again.That is why it's funny that Zedillo said he pardoned me and ordered me free and I continue to harass the government every day and they don't do a thing to me. That is the most cynical thing, I was not set free because of Zedillo but by a court of law, and he can not do anything to me because I am not violating any law by doing what I am doing
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